Can a Machine Truly Think? Evidence for God

SPEAKER A 00:00:00 - 00:00:38 As artificial intelligence becomes more powerful, people are asking a question that was once only science fiction. Could a computer ever be truly conscious? Could it actually think, feel, and experience the world the way you do? Today we're going to answer that question, and what we discover reveals something profound, not just about AI, but about what it means to be human, and why consciousness points to something far greater than any machine could ever be. Welcome to Faith and Science. I'm Kaysie Vokurka and joining me to discuss this topic is Dr. John Ashton. Welcome to the program, Dr. John. SPEAKER B 00:00:38 - 00:00:39 Hello, Casey. SPEAKER A 00:00:39 - 00:01:21 Dr. John has written a book entitled The Big Argument: Does God Exist? And in today's program, we'll be drawing on some insights from this book, particularly from chapter 10, which has been put together by Dr. Charles Taliaferro, Uh, he got his PhD in philosophy from Brown University. So we are discussing some of his insights. Now this, um, this book, uh, draws a, quite a distinction between a computer that simulates consciousness versus one that is actually conscious. Now, what is the difference between this for a start? And how does this difference actually matter for the question of say AI? SPEAKER B 00:01:21 - 00:01:31 Yes, well, with artificial intelligence, essentially we have computer programmers who are conscious. SPEAKER A 00:01:31 - 00:01:32 Yes. SPEAKER B 00:01:32 - 00:02:12 Are essentially putting together programs that enable the computer to assemble and sort through a whole lot of complex information that is available out there. So there's a lot of input now that is available to them. And this input consists of visual images now that the computer can take in. And by, again, telling the computer what these different images are in smaller programs and accumulating as programs become more sophisticated, the computers begin to recognise what these visual inputs are. SPEAKER A 00:02:12 - 00:02:12 Yes. SPEAKER B 00:02:12 - 00:02:33 And a classic example of that is is face recognition data that we have now, eyeball recognition data, all these sort of things now. And so this is as a result of putting together programs and programming the computer to recognise and be able to process inputs. SPEAKER A 00:02:33 - 00:02:33 Right. SPEAKER B 00:02:33 - 00:03:41 And the same can be done with sound. And of course, we now have voice recognition programs that they can listen perhaps to a human voice maybe for as little as 20 seconds, and then be able to replicate the human voice. At the same time, we can program computers, of course, to take information off the internet, whether it be historical information, these sort of things, inputs from sporting and other physical activities and this sort of thing. So we've developed this ability to be able to combine this information in such a way that computers then can make decisions. So we have the classic example of the autopilot, for example. I've driven a Tesla car on autopilot. It's quite amazing what it can do. And of course, there are still shortcomings depending on the system they use, whether they use a radar system or whether they use an all-visual system. There are pros and cons for either. And they can combine, again, radar information as well. SPEAKER A 00:03:41 - 00:03:48 But what you're saying is, though, that the decision-making of these machines is all based on the programming that it's received. SPEAKER B 00:03:48 - 00:03:55 That's right. And it's all done by the programming of conscious programmers who have made those sort of decisions to start with. SPEAKER A 00:03:55 - 00:03:56 Yeah, the developers have put that in. SPEAKER B 00:03:56 - 00:04:20 So I guess the situation is, how far can we go with this in terms of a computer? So we can certainly have You know, robots now that appear to have a certain amount of consciousness. But when we come to some of the deeper issues of morality, for example, is something right or wrong? SPEAKER A 00:04:20 - 00:04:21 Yes. SPEAKER B 00:04:21 - 00:04:55 So we run into another issue. So for example, we have the case for, and I think it might even be mentioned in this chapter somewhere, of a serial killer. who was brought up in a, you know, God-fearing home, but chose to make those decisions. But when he was confronted with the impact that those killings had, he came to, you know, believe in God. I think he'd grown up actually believing in evolution and chose to— SPEAKER A 00:04:55 - 00:04:56 Mm-hmm. SPEAKER B 00:04:56 - 00:05:03 You know, if we've evolved, then it doesn't matter. if we kill people, survival of the fittest sort of thing. SPEAKER A 00:05:03 - 00:05:03 Yes, yes. SPEAKER B 00:05:03 - 00:05:31 But then after he was confronted with these, with the issue of what had happened, he was very, very remorseful and actually eventually became a Christian. I just forget the name. He was a serial killer in the US. But it's a very interesting question of consciousness. And one of the challenges is, of course, How do we define consciousness? You know, this, this is a big, a big issue. SPEAKER A 00:05:31 - 00:05:56 It is a big issue. And I guess, um, we can— we know AI is not there at this point. They're still sort of functioning as a machine, um, that operating how it's been programmed, whereas someone who's conscious is really in a state with independent thought and, and, um, you know, they're, they're making moral decisions and all of these things. So that's quite different to what we have currently. SPEAKER B 00:05:56 - 00:06:13 Yeah, so we have a challenge whether, you know, can some non-conscious entity create consciousness? And this is a big challenge for evolution. They want to somehow find that, you know, solve that issue. How can this come about? SPEAKER A 00:06:13 - 00:06:41 Yeah, yeah. And so like hypothetically in the future, say if, science was able to produce, uh, like a, a, um, a conscious supercomputer-type machine that has an element of true consciousness. The, um, the author in the chapter kind of proposed that scenario and then discussed it. And so what, what can we, what can we draw from his thoughts? SPEAKER B 00:06:41 - 00:06:51 Okay, so one of the challenges there is that He believes that these sort of things can happen. SPEAKER A 00:06:51 - 00:06:52 Right. SPEAKER B 00:06:52 - 00:07:29 And so understanding what a belief is, is a very interesting thing. And because really we don't understand what consciousness is, it's going to be very hard to, you know, program a computer into being actually truly conscious. I think one of the things is that Again, consciousness is related to a supernatural entity in some ways. In that we can measure our brain, we can squash it into a measuring cylinder and all this sort of thing and measure it, but we can't measure our thoughts. SPEAKER A 00:07:29 - 00:07:29 Yes. SPEAKER B 00:07:29 - 00:08:03 So this is very interesting. So where do actually thoughts come from is quite a challenging question. So I think the argument is that we could get to the point where We're simulating some aspects of consciousness so we can make a decision on the basis of a threat. You know, there's a car coming towards us on our right, we need to apply the brakes, these sort of things. But true consciousness involves, you know, a choice and a preference. You know, do you want— do you prefer blue over yellow sort of thing? SPEAKER A 00:08:03 - 00:08:03 Yeah. SPEAKER B 00:08:03 - 00:08:40 What's your favourite colour? All those sort of things. And at the moment, again, it's going to be based— if it's a mechanical system, it's going to be based on some set of programming that it sorts through, that it makes them a very mechanical choice. And this, on the basis of human experience, is very different to the experience that we have as personal consciousness. So it seems that ultimately, while we might get close, there will always be that gap. between real consciousness and simulated consciousness based on some sort of pre-programming? SPEAKER A 00:08:40 - 00:09:25 Now, the exact— the idea exists that, you know, in nature we do see examples of purely biological things ending up becoming conscious by observable, almost you could say natural sort of processes. And one of the examples talked about here is how like an egg and sperm when they're separate, they're non-conscious cells, and then they come together and eventually you have a child develop from that who's conscious. And so I guess, how does that kind of example fit into this discussion of, can something that's purely material end up becoming something that's conscious? SPEAKER B 00:09:25 - 00:09:33 Yeah, so this is one of the real challenges of science, so that you have We understand the biochemistry to a degree, not fully. SPEAKER A 00:09:33 - 00:09:33 Yes. SPEAKER B 00:09:33 - 00:10:19 Of the union between the sperm and the egg, the transfer of the DNA and so forth between the two and so forth, and the accumulation and the programming that is already within the code within the DNA. But this is one of the mysteries of where does consciousness come from? And this is truly a challenge. Now, there's some other interesting aspects of this. If we look at, for example, cuckoos who lay their eggs in other birds' nests. If we take the European cuckoo, it will hatch out in another bird's nest, grow up, and fly from Europe to South Africa to meet up with its parents, where they'll all meet in the— SPEAKER A 00:10:19 - 00:10:19 That's amazing. SPEAKER B 00:10:19 - 00:10:36 So we have situations like this. We have the monarch butterfly that'll fly maybe from Canada to Mexico and meet up with all the other ones. And yet it may be 2 generations away from parents that came from that area. SPEAKER A 00:10:36 - 00:10:37 Hmm. SPEAKER B 00:10:37 - 00:11:21 So there's a lot of fascinating things in nature that we can't explain. Dr. Rupert Sheldrake talks about how there might be, you know, morphogenic fields. And so we see this in insects, for example. Spiders grow up away, they're not trained by parents or anything, and yet they weave the same sort of eggs— webs. So there's a certain amount of programming there. But when we come to consciousness, to human consciousness, we know that there's a very personal attribute there that we see. And this seems to be a different higher order case for consciousness. SPEAKER A 00:11:21 - 00:11:22 Compared to other animals. SPEAKER B 00:11:22 - 00:11:53 And it's also interesting that there, in all the cultures, there was this need to worship, worship the source of this consciousness. And hence, you know, there's, I think, accumulative evidence that we think of God as a spiritual being. He's a conscious spiritual being. And so one of the arguments is that material things can produce material things, but only a consciousness could produce true consciousness. SPEAKER A 00:11:53 - 00:11:53 Mm. SPEAKER B 00:11:53 - 00:12:15 And this is one of the fascinating things, again, in nature, that all nature appears to be underpinned by a consciousness. And another aspect of this, of course, is the understanding, for example, of the DNA code itself. So as we said, Charles Taylor, Farouk was a philosopher. SPEAKER A 00:12:15 - 00:12:15 Yes. SPEAKER B 00:12:15 - 00:12:41 One of the greatest philosophers was Anthony Flew from Reading University, I think it was, in the UK. He was a highly esteemed philosopher and an atheist, but right at the end, he actually became a Christian believer in God. The evidence that convinced him was the origin of the DNA code. SPEAKER A 00:12:41 - 00:12:42 Hmm, interesting. SPEAKER B 00:12:42 - 00:13:45 And we know that codes and language all require a mind, something that is non-material to be able to interpret that. Other aspects too are the fine-tuning of the universe. You know, when we think of the, you know, the balance, the balance of entropy in the universe is so finely tuned to something like 10 to the power 10 to the 1,018, something like that. It's some huge, huge number. Or it might be 10 to the power 10 to the power 123, actually, I think. So even a more enormous number. It's a number that is so huge. But what it's pointing to is that this fine-tuning is such that the universe really theoretically is improbable. And so again, we're taken into, but it is here. And who set up all these laws of gravity and magnetic fields, electromagnetism, all those sort of things points to a supermind. SPEAKER A 00:13:45 - 00:13:46 Mm-hmm. SPEAKER B 00:13:46 - 00:14:21 And of course, the Christian faith provides powerful evidence that we as humans can connect with this mind. So I think that's why a computer will never replicate this. AI can never replicate this. This is something that is supernatural. And instead, as I said, the whole concept of language, the fact of the amazing code in DNA, as I said, convinced, you know, one of the world's leading philosophers, Anthony Flew, yep, that there must be another conscious mind that is responsible for our consciousness. SPEAKER A 00:14:21 - 00:15:14 Yeah, very fascinating thoughts there, especially because, you know, this idea of consciousness is something as humans we recognize exists. Like it's very, evident to us, but we can't even replicate it ourselves. And so, like, we can't even define it, as we're going to discuss more, in real terms. And so it's, yeah, it's a real challenge for us. And certainly AI is a long way from that space. It's the programming machine sort of level that we can use as a tool, but it's far from consciousness. So thank you for fleshing out those thoughts for us today. Have you ever struggled with doubts about God's existence or known someone who has? What helped you through it? Share your thoughts and stories in the comments. Your journey could inspire someone else who's searching for answers.