Where Do Thoughts Come From?: Evidence for God

SPEAKER A 00:00:00 - 00:00:37 What is consciousness? You might assume science has already figured that out, but here's what's remarkable: the world's leading philosophers openly admit it's their greatest unsolved mystery. When you feel pain, experience joy, or simply think a thought, something extraordinary is happening that no physical process can fully explain. Today we're going to look at why consciousness isn't just a hard problem for science, It may be the hardest problem of all. Welcome to Faith and Science. I'm Kaysie Vokurka. Joining me to discuss this topic is Dr. John Ashton. Welcome to the program, John. SPEAKER B 00:00:37 - 00:00:38 Hello, Casey. SPEAKER A 00:00:38 - 00:01:29 John— Dr. John has written a book entitled The Big Argument: Does God Exist? And today we'll be drawing on some more insights from this book, particularly from chapter 10 by Charles Taliaferro, who got his PhD at Brown University. And he is discussing where do thoughts come from. And so that's what we've been talking about. And we are interested in some comments here. There's some, some prominent philosophers such as Marvin Minsky, Paul Churchland, and Daniel Dennett. They have argued that mental terms like belief, desire, and emotion should actually be discarded by science. And so what was their core motivation for taking that position? SPEAKER B 00:01:29 - 00:02:10 Right. So these scholars take on a naturalistic worldview. In other words, all that exists is the physical reality. So therefore, they have to explain these feelings that we normally use when we're talking about poetry and these sort of areas. So when we come to science, we really need to discard these because essentially they're, they're cornered into a position where they have to believe that everything is a, is a function of mechanical forces and— Yeah. SPEAKER A 00:02:10 - 00:02:12 And matter and energy. SPEAKER B 00:02:12 - 00:02:40 Yeah, matter. Yes, yes, exactly. And so they have to explain this is a major problem for them. And I think really today Most philosophers have recognized that, yeah, we can't explain it in terms of physical things. And so it's a real challenge then as to how did consciousness arise, particularly if you espouse an evolutionary model. SPEAKER A 00:02:40 - 00:02:58 Mm-hmm. So their worldview really is driving the desire to not have those terms in use because those terms, I guess, point to something that doesn't fit their worldview. Of everything being naturalistic and physically based. SPEAKER B 00:02:58 - 00:03:07 Well, that's right, yeah. So if you have the alternative view that there's a creator who is non-material, yeah, very easy for him to create consciousness. SPEAKER A 00:03:07 - 00:03:34 It's not a problem, is it? Yeah, yeah. Interesting. Now, the chapter also points out a contradiction about this vein of thought. And Stephen Stitch, He describes— is described as believing that there are no beliefs. So not just saying we should get rid of the word, but actually saying they don't even exist. Like, there's no such thing as a belief. How is that idea actually a contradiction? SPEAKER B 00:03:34 - 00:03:36 Well, he's believing it. SPEAKER A 00:03:36 - 00:03:38 Yeah, okay, right. SPEAKER B 00:03:38 - 00:04:04 But I guess he would possibly get around that by saying, well, you know, I'm programmed to know that there are no beliefs. But the problem is that where does he get that evidence from that he is actually programmed to do that? Or is that a choice that he has consciously made because of his particular worldview? SPEAKER A 00:04:04 - 00:04:05 Yeah. SPEAKER B 00:04:05 - 00:04:30 And so this is, you know, the whole concept of consciousness. What is consciousness is, you know, it's quite a challenge because If we go down the route of an evolutionary model, then we start off with atoms and molecules that combine with chemical reactions that produce more complex chemical structures. Now, these are all basically chemicals. SPEAKER A 00:04:30 - 00:04:30 Hmm. SPEAKER B 00:04:30 - 00:06:29 And so we have the challenge of where did the first living organism come from? There's a number of challenges there. We, you know, it's outside the scope of this chapter to talk about them, but basically they, are that the chemical reactions required to form a living organism just don't work in nature. They only— those chemical reactions will only go in a living system. So this again raises another interesting question. And so that's why essentially the argument is that it's absolutely impossible for a living cell to form from non-living molecules on the basis of the chemistry we know today. Now, if we extend that and take that a little bit further, what they're trying to say is that, okay, these non-material molecules can somehow produce a non-material entity, consciousness. And this is where we get into the very interesting definition of, you know, what is actual consciousness? Like, is consciousness just electrical reactions within the brain which we can measure, right? Or is it, is it actually something more? And one of the arguments is, of course, that we— you, as we mentioned before, you can weigh your brain, but you can't weigh your thoughts. You can't measure your thoughts. And one of the interesting things that comes out of this is, particularly in the area of language, if we write a message on the sand, right? John loves Colleen. So this is a— this is an emotion that we're writing in the sand. And we write those letters in the sand. But the thing is that the— it's on a material substance. SPEAKER A 00:06:29 - 00:06:30 Yes. SPEAKER B 00:06:30 - 00:07:24 A base, a material base, right? But that message itself is actually non-material. You can't weigh that message, you can't measure it. But again, that can arise an emotion, right? So for example, if this was a young person, there was another young lady that was in love with this fellow John, then she might then feel jealousy or something like this, right? So this is very, very interesting. How do we define terms like like love and emotion, these things that come into this. But it's been preserved or transmitted on a material substance. But the actual message itself is non-material. It's non-material. We can't weigh that message. It's not, the message itself isn't composed of matter and energy. SPEAKER A 00:07:24 - 00:07:24 Hmm. SPEAKER B 00:07:24 - 00:08:18 It's subscribed using matter and energy. But it's not, the message itself is a non-material thing. And this is part of consciousness and what makes consciousness so special that we can come along, see that code, right? And depending what language it was written in, you know, it might be written in Latvian or whatever. They use different words to— in English. But again, if our brain was trained to read that code in terms of consciousness. And so this is one of the challenges. How can non-material atoms and molecules forming chemical structures produce something that is this whole non-material concept of consciousness? SPEAKER A 00:08:18 - 00:08:32 Yes. Yes. Especially when the properties of the non-material aspect of it don't even— don't exist in the properties of physical substance. Yeah, that's right. So how can it even come up with that on its own? SPEAKER B 00:08:32 - 00:08:37 And yet the fact that we talk about these 2 entities suggests that they are real. SPEAKER A 00:08:37 - 00:08:37 Yes. SPEAKER B 00:08:37 - 00:09:12 That they are real. That there's definitely this non-material entity of consciousness. And that's why most philosophers deal with this. But the problem is, how did it arise? And really, at the moment, there's no known medical or biological explanation for how consciousness could arise. And this is a major challenge for people who want to continue to hold to a naturalistic or a mechanical worldview. And it heavily points to a theistic position. SPEAKER A 00:09:12 - 00:09:50 Yeah, because whether you are confronted with the fact that there's the materialistic matter and energy side, and then there's the consciousness non-material side. If you look at it as exclusive things, then it's confronting for a naturalist. If you look at it as, or if you imagine that somehow the non-material could be derived from the material, somehow it can create it or whatever might be proposed, still the existence of that non-material aspect is quite confronting for a naturalistic mindset. SPEAKER B 00:09:50 - 00:10:37 Oh yes, yes. And senior philosophers in that recognize that. You know, how could these molecular species somehow now produce this concept of consciousness? Because, you know, how can electrical voltages produce consciousness? Now we can use electrical voltages to, vibrate the membrane in a speaker and make sound and this sort of thing. But those electrical voltages are very subject to the laws of physics, right? And so there's just no mechanism where those laws of physics can somehow translate into expressing emotion of love or jealousy or belief. SPEAKER A 00:10:37 - 00:10:38 Hmm. SPEAKER B 00:10:38 - 00:11:08 And so most of the statements that are made by the naturalists to maintain their positions are assertions that are actually beliefs on their part. And so most of the claims are actually self-contradictory. And that's why a number of examples are given by Charles in his chapter from a philosopher's point of view, that when you dig down into the logic of these, they're actually self-refuting claims. SPEAKER A 00:11:09 - 00:11:33 Very, very interesting. And yeah, I guess the idea, as you mentioned earlier, that this aspect of consciousness is from— could be explained from the existence of a larger mind, or the God answer, is so much more logically plausible for explaining the existence of consciousness. SPEAKER B 00:11:33 - 00:11:53 Oh, very much so. Yes, yes. And it's interesting that the Bible itself talks about a God who is like that. You know, he says, I am, because I am is self-existent. So he's outside space and time. So he fits a perfect description to create the laws of physics that sustain the universe. SPEAKER A 00:11:53 - 00:11:53 Yes. SPEAKER B 00:11:53 - 00:12:19 And it's interesting that the Bible actually talks about that, that this mind actually sustains the universe itself, sustains the laws that sustain the universe. And that's why God can perform miracles and those sort of things. So again, one of the aspects that comes out of the materialistic worldview is, of course, that you can't have miracles. And of course, this is scientism. SPEAKER A 00:12:19 - 00:12:20 Mm-hmm. SPEAKER B 00:12:20 - 00:12:47 And so that's why they're pushing very hard to try and explain consciousness, to claim that maybe consciousness is just an illusion. Where in actual fact, we have everyday evidence that, you know, where do our thoughts come from? We can make a decision. I can make a decision now in the spur of the moment to move my little finger. And so what happens there? Somehow my thoughts can affect electrical voltages. So my thoughts can affect the real world. SPEAKER A 00:12:47 - 00:12:47 Hmm. SPEAKER B 00:12:47 - 00:13:15 My thoughts, which are non-material, can affect this transducer, which my body is really a transducer that enables the inputs of my thoughts, which are non-material, to enable me to enact in a physical world. So our bodies are actually, in my view, amazing transducers of taking the non-material aspect of thought so that we can then operate in this physical world. SPEAKER A 00:13:15 - 00:13:15 Hmm. SPEAKER B 00:13:15 - 00:13:55 And to me, this is again powerful evidence for the existence of God, because again, the Bible says that we're made in God's image. And it seems to me this is in an image of our ability to think. our thoughts. And that way, where it's interesting, we've been able to, through our thoughts, discover the workings of God's creation. So from so many aspects we look at, it makes so much sense that our thoughts are supernatural, that they come from God. They're non-material. They can't be created materialistically, except we know that in living organisms they can have thoughts. SPEAKER A 00:13:55 - 00:14:41 Hmm. Very, very incredible and fascinating to try and wrap your mind around these questions and the realities that exist in our world around us. And yeah, and to examine the ideas behind how these can be explained. And so yeah, thank you for pointing out those. I guess it's really two sides, two ways of looking at this question. And, um, yeah, can help us to, to try and make sense of the question of consciousness. Have you ever struggled with doubts about God's existence or known someone who has? What helped you through it? Share your thoughts and stories in the comments. Your journey could inspire someone else who's searching for answers.