Your Mind Is a Miracle: Evidence for God

SPEAKER A 00:00:00 - 00:00:44 Atheist philosopher Colin McGinn, who was a professor at Oxford University, wrote in his book The Mysterious Mind along the lines that we have a good idea how the Big Bang created stars and galaxies, but we have absolutely no idea how lumps of matter ever developed an inner conscious life. That admission from someone who doesn't believe in God is extraordinary. Today we're exploring why the existence of consciousness— your ability to think, feel, and be aware— is one of the most compelling compelling pieces of evidence that points directly to a Creator. Welcome to Faith and Science. I'm Kaysie Vokurka. Joining me to discuss this topic is Dr. John Ashton. Welcome once again, Dr. John. SPEAKER B 00:00:44 - 00:00:45 Hello, Kaysie. SPEAKER A 00:00:45 - 00:01:40 It's great to have you back with us to discuss this topic. And Dr. John has written a book called The Big Argument: Does God Exist? And in today's program, we're drawing on some insights from this book, particularly from chapter 10. called Where Do Thoughts Come From? And it's by Charles Taliaferro, who has a PhD from Brown University. And we mentioned, or I mentioned at the beginning, about the philosopher Colin McGinn. And he was an atheist, not a theist, and admitted about naturalism not really having any explanation of how matter developed an inner conscious life. And we've been talking about the question of consciousness. So why is this admission so significant? And would he have any alternative explanation? SPEAKER B 00:01:40 - 00:02:00 Well, the problem with naturalism is that the problem of consciousness is a problem. It's a major problem. If we believe in God as a creator, the creator God, outside space and time that the Bible describes, there's no problem. That explains consciousness. SPEAKER A 00:02:00 - 00:02:01 Makes sense. SPEAKER B 00:02:01 - 00:02:40 Very easily. So naturalism have a major problem in this area. And one of the areas is, as they look at it, they say, well, look, if we just have this material worldview of matter and energy is all that there is, how can this produce consciousness? One of the other issues is that if we have a mechanical worldview, and this mechanical worldview arose from randomness, this is another major problem that underpins the mechanical worldview, then there can be no purpose in things. SPEAKER A 00:02:40 - 00:02:41 Okay. SPEAKER B 00:02:41 - 00:03:08 Now, one of the fascinating things is that when you read particularly the science literature, say related to biology, if we say, look at neurophysiology textbooks on the brain and this sort of thing, they will often use an expression like this: somehow nature learned how to make the such-and-such connections in the brain. SPEAKER A 00:03:08 - 00:03:13 Yes, that sounds familiar, that phrase. I think I've come across that for sure. Yeah, yeah. SPEAKER B 00:03:13 - 00:03:50 And you read somewhere else a PhD thesis on Looking at the very fine-scale structure on butterfly wings and how they produce the different defense patterns and so forth. Again, use this same phrase: somehow nature learned how to order things in terms of having a purpose. And so if we have things that are simply mechanical, then there will be a clear, defined ending of those outcomes. So that makes it very difficult to explain, for example, creativity. SPEAKER A 00:03:50 - 00:03:51 Hmm. SPEAKER B 00:03:51 - 00:03:57 This is, which is again part of the human mind. SPEAKER A 00:03:57 - 00:03:57 Yes. SPEAKER B 00:03:57 - 00:04:08 And so again, this aspect. So we have the aspect of where do thoughts come from? But thoughts can be creative. You know, we create pottery. SPEAKER A 00:04:08 - 00:04:08 Yes. SPEAKER B 00:04:08 - 00:04:27 You know, I have a granddaughter that creates beautiful patterns on pottery. And it's her passion. And they're very good. They're not like other things. They're very beautiful. And she has her own particular style. And that's something that we often say. This artist has a particular style. SPEAKER A 00:04:27 - 00:04:28 Yes. SPEAKER B 00:04:28 - 00:04:58 Or this author has a particular style. And this represents creativity. So this is very hard to explain in terms of some sort of mechanical model. to create things. Now, scientists, and often the people who espouse this mechanical worldview, they say, okay, well, we systematically explore the properties of electromagnetic fields, and we come up with theories. We look at the properties of light and so forth. SPEAKER A 00:04:58 - 00:04:58 Mm-hmm. SPEAKER B 00:04:58 - 00:05:30 And we have the laws of refraction and so forth. And these are all laws, and we find things follow a set pattern. We can explain the motion of planets and satellites around the Earth, so forth in terms of gravity. But when it comes to creativity, this is something that's new and we have the ability to do this. So when we look at, say, spiders and spider webs, particular species of spider will tend to, you know, form the same type of web. SPEAKER A 00:05:30 - 00:05:30 Yes. SPEAKER B 00:05:30 - 00:06:10 All the time. So it's programmed, it seems, to a particular purpose. The same with the navigation of a butterfly flying from Canada. If the monarch butterfly migrates from Canada, it's been born up there, raised up there, maybe had its babies up there. And so its grandchildren or children are now migrating down to Mexico for the winter. But somehow there's a program in there. And we know that if they get blown out to sea, they'll re-navigate and go on track. back to that point, right? So this is something that's programmed in. But this is very different to feelings. SPEAKER A 00:06:10 - 00:06:12 Yeah. SPEAKER B 00:06:12 - 00:06:59 Emotions, making decisions on the basis of emotion. People who decide they're gonna move away from home, they wanna see the world or something like this. And again, being creative, deciding I'm going to write a novel. about something. Now, it's true that we've got computers, for example. And I know one interesting exercise that the guys did demonstrating AI to me. They said, John, look, we can use AI to create anything. Let's, for example, create an essay on how jellyfish saved the world from World War III. All right? And so here the AI began writing, and it was quite a fascinating thing, right? SPEAKER A 00:06:59 - 00:07:00 Very entertaining title. SPEAKER B 00:07:02 - 00:07:56 But you could see that it was taking pieces already off from, you know, battery history, you know, from battle histories, experiments with jellyfish and, and all these sort of things. And it was, it was putting them together in a way. So in a way, it was certainly being, being creative. But again, it was preprogrammed in, in a particular way to do that. Oh, I see. And it wasn't feelings of emotions and these sort of things there were lacking. And this is the difference with our thoughts. Our thoughts, we can be totally creative. But furthermore, when we created the essay on how jellyfish saved the world from World War III, we had inputs that were going in there. That input then, that essay couldn't go any further. It was stuck there on the computer screen. If I printed it out, prunk. SPEAKER A 00:07:56 - 00:07:56 Yeah. SPEAKER B 00:07:56 - 00:08:08 It's printed there. The difference with our mind is that we can, as my granddaughter, for example, can see in her mind a beautiful pattern, she can then go and create it. SPEAKER A 00:08:08 - 00:08:08 Hmm. SPEAKER B 00:08:08 - 00:08:43 And this is a very interesting concept that we can take our thoughts and convert our thoughts into action. You know, I can decide, you know, I don't really know a lot about the cultures and geography of South America, I'm gonna plan a trip there. And I go there and I experience it. And these things again, I can experience emotions that I like this place or I hate this place. I'm feeling hot, I'm feeling cold, these sort of things. And what does this, you know, how does this affect me? SPEAKER A 00:08:43 - 00:09:33 Yeah, yeah. So really you're highlighting the aspect of like individuality, for instance. There's such variety of expressions of creativity, also touching on the idea of imagination, the fact that we can imagine things in our mind and then go and put them into effect. Like people can create whole new worlds in their mind. They have different creatures, different laws, whole systems operating, and then put them all in novels or movies or something like that, express it out. And that can give us, you know, just an amazing experience. Now, how, if we're thinking about the question of a divine mind, how could that action be amplified in a divine mind? And how could that relate to the reality of our consciousness? SPEAKER B 00:09:33 - 00:10:13 Yes. Well, I think, you know, obviously God is conscious. And we have the amazing evidence when we look in nature of the amazing genetic codes that encode for all the different types of creatures, from bacteria, plants, animals, fish, and so forth. And these codes represent a particular chemical language, but they create things. They create things of amazing beauty. And we still can't write code, for example, to insert into pig DNA to create wings that'll make it fly, right? So it's so complex. SPEAKER A 00:10:13 - 00:10:14 Yeah. SPEAKER B 00:10:14 - 00:10:35 So this complexity. Now, the other fascinating thing as a referred to earlier, that with my mind, I can move my little finger. With my thoughts, I can actually do things. And to me, to have a model of a non-material God, that what his thoughts then become reality. SPEAKER A 00:10:35 - 00:10:36 Hmm. SPEAKER B 00:10:36 - 00:11:09 And this is really the only explanation of the universe. And it's fascinating that in the beginning of the Bible, it says, God spoke. It's sort of like, you know, it wasn't physical sound waves vibrating air created matter. No, because there was no matter. There was no energy. So it's God's thoughts. It's just an expression that we see there of God materializing his thoughts. God had the ability to create the system that would create his thoughts with a purpose. SPEAKER A 00:11:09 - 00:11:09 Mm-hmm. SPEAKER B 00:11:09 - 00:11:38 And we can see this with the precise fine-tuning in the universe. We can see this in the amazing DNA codes that have produced amazing living systems with amazing reproductive systems. All these things we're still studying, trying to figure out, but they're here, they work. They, you know, they're self-sustaining, they're self-reproducing and so forth. So to me, this makes common sense that this mind also wanted some other minds to interact with. SPEAKER A 00:11:38 - 00:11:38 Mm-hmm. SPEAKER B 00:11:38 - 00:12:00 And made us. to interact with that mind. And we have that ability. And again, it's amazing that the human ability, the human mind is the only mind that has been really able to dissect and understand nature and begin to see the workings of nature. And as we've done this, for many people, it's pointed to how awesome God is. SPEAKER A 00:12:00 - 00:12:01 Mm-hmm. SPEAKER B 00:12:01 - 00:12:16 And as we've alluded to earlier, we even find that people that don't recognize the existence of God, somehow they attribute God-like mind characteristics to nature itself. SPEAKER A 00:12:16 - 00:12:17 Yes, this is true. SPEAKER B 00:12:17 - 00:12:49 And the God that we worship, the Christian God, is outside of this created world. So a lot of the ancient gods were humans, superhumans, or they were animals, you know, snakes, beetles, or whatever it was, or a tree. Or a rock, for example, a special creator rock, something. And so the God that Christians worship is a God that is outside all physical things. He actually can't be described. He's non-describable. SPEAKER A 00:12:49 - 00:12:50 Mm. SPEAKER B 00:12:50 - 00:13:05 Because he's totally outside physical reality. And this is a very important point, I think. And it comes out in the Bible early in Exodus when God was speaking to Moses. And he uses this expression, I AM. SPEAKER A 00:13:05 - 00:13:06 Yes. SPEAKER B 00:13:06 - 00:13:31 'Cause I AM to— and he then used the word THE LORD in capitals written in the Bible, that I AM something that is outside everything that you can imagine. I created everything that you can imagine. I created your ability to imagine. But again, our imaginings are limited usually to within this physical world of experience. SPEAKER A 00:13:31 - 00:13:31 Hmm. SPEAKER B 00:13:31 - 00:14:26 So to me, this is really powerful evidence. The fact that it's quite intuitive that we have a mind, that we have our own personal thoughts, that this links us with the super creator God that made everything. And the evidence from all the aspects of science, physics, biology, biochemistry point that our existence has gotta be supernatural. No known laws of physics chemistry, biology can explain our existence, whether it's the existence of the universe, the existence of atoms and molecules, the existence of the laws of physics, the existence of living systems. We can't explain any of that. Matter of fact, as some philosophers point out, we don't even understand what energy is. So this is an important aspect. God explains and provides an answer that works. SPEAKER A 00:14:26 - 00:15:09 Hmm. Wow, that's quite comprehensive, isn't it? That God has an explanation for all of these mysteries. Well, God himself is a mystery to us. He has revealed himself in his Word, and logically it fits as an answer to everything we see around us, as you have pointed out. So that's— yeah, thank you for explaining it like that to help us understand and wrap our minds around this topic. Have you ever struggled with doubts about God's existence, or known someone who has? What helped you through it? Share your thoughts and stories in the comments. Your journey could inspire someone else who's searching for answers.